Black Journalists on Journalism

Zuri Berry: This is the Black Journalists on Journalism podcast, a ZMC Podcasts production.

Donnell Suggs: Welcome back to another episode of Black Journalists on Journalism, Zuri Berry. My partner in crime and myself are here, and our special guest tonight is Caron LeNoir. I've been practicing that. Am I right?

Caron LeNoir: You're right. You're so right.

Donnell Suggs: Miss LeNoir is a photographer, is a visual journalist, audio journalist, you name it, she's done it. And a veteran by, by, by the way. Welcome. welcome to the show.

Caron LeNoir: Thank you so much for having me.

Zuri Berry: Caron, it's a pleasure to have you on, and part of the reason why I wanted to talk with you is because of your veteran status, but also because we sort of walk a little bit of the same path in terms of being in the podcasting space and sort of also working as journalists. So there's a, there's a sort of mixture of things that we do there in terms of independence, but also, client work.

And so it's, it would be fascinating to sort of get. It into that with you. But of course we wanna start with your journalism journey, and I'd love to hear when you first got the bug to be a journalist.

Caron LeNoir: When I was born. Honey, I was born for this. I literally had my first published, published piece when I was in the second grade. And I was also charged with, well, let's be clear, I'm a genius. I am, I'm a genius. they ran outta work for me to do in elementary school, so they put me to work in the office. So I used to run the office, the front office in my elementary school coast, spring Park Elementary, and I actually was charged with programming the morning announcements, and that led to me being a part of a storytelling show on, w E a A FM with, Dr. Mary Carter Smith, who was the GRE of our city. So I started, I began in broadcast and telling stories. I was on stage from the time I was three. cuz as you can tell, I'm really shy. I was a very demonstrative child. So, they just found ways to put me to work.

And those ways have served me my entire life until this day.

Zuri Berry: Storytelling seems to be at the heart of it too. And I'm super interested in how you, went about through, I believe your experience in Baltimore, right? You grew up in Baltimore, is that correct?

Caron LeNoir: I'm a daughter of Baltimore.

Zuri Berry: There you go. And you were again, sort of high school paper and, and things of that nature and broadcast and then moved on.

Can you talk a little bit about that, how you cultivated that love and, and who supported you, getting into this world that we all love and enjoy.

Caron LeNoir: You know what's so amazing is that, my teachers are still my friends. I talked to my teachers, my first grade, second grade, third grade teachers. To this day, we are close friends. I'm friends with their children. They saw something in me and nurtured that. My mother is an artist. My father is an artist. I, my father's side of the family was visual art.

My mother's side of the family was theater and music, and I got all of the worlds in massive doses, and it took me until adulthood to not overlook that, to embrace it, and to really value the fact that I'm not relegated to just being a triple threat. I'm a Quin topple threat. I'm vicious in these streets.

I write, I sing, I act, I dance. I, I write music. and my children are also gifted as well. But growing up in a place like Baltimore where there's a lot of poverty and a lot of black people who live in poverty, we had an incredible environment of art that enveloped us and kept us safe. Art kept me safe.

Theater kept me safe, music kept me and my family safe. it's a real privilege to be able to live this life out loud and to be proud that I can live this life out loud. As an artist, as an activist, as a journalist, as a speaker, and truth teller, it, it just, I love my life is amazing. I'm, I'm awesome. I'm awesome.

Donnell Suggs: Speak. Of awesome. Your dad. We wanna go back. I wanna segue to your dad real quick. You say he was a visual journalist from what I heard from other podcasts and did some research. He trained his brothers to be visual journalists as well. Can we talk about that a little bit?

Caron LeNoir: He did. My daddy's name is Chris Cuffy, Christopher Cuffy, and he just turned 75 and he still has a full head of hair. And I just saw him a couple of weeks ago. I don't live in Maryland right now, but I go and visit him as often as I can. And my father is a brilliant sculptor, painter drawer and photographer, and he taught all of, there were eight boys and two girls.

He taught all of them how to shoot. And I grew up in a dark room learning how to shoot, but didn't become a professional photographer until about 15 years ago. and I remember my uncle Stevie, my uncle Stevie, who, who's my late uncle Stevie, who I love dearly. He was, Deaf and he was a photographer, became the photographer of Baltimore City and also for the state of Maryland.

And I remember growing up in his home and seeing the candid photographs he took of his wife and his children. And they were so rich, they were so black and so rich and so beautiful. Just how he taught me how to learn light. He taught me how to learn light and embrace darkness. And it was a really, really beautiful thing.

And to know that my dad was the one that taught him just made it even better. My dad is still a brilliant artist, even though he doesn't have the same capacity he did before, I remember sitting at, my dining room table. When I lived in Charlotte, North Carolina and my, my baby girl was like three, three or four years old, and daddy just picked up a pen and he started sketching and he sketched a picture of her eye that was so rich in detail and ridiculously crazy.

I still have it. I still have it. I have it stored because it was just such a beautiful rendition of humanity and, and expression and love and light. That's what photography and visual art is to me. It's, it's, I'm a light bender and my daddy taught me that and he taught his brothers and sisters that too.

Zuri Berry: That's so beautiful to hear, and a wonderful, wonderful retelling of that moment too. Thank you for that. so there was a point in time in which you transitioned and you went into the military and specifically you went to the Navy. And I, I'd love to hear about that time period of your life where you get out of high school and you know, you're thinking about what's next and what to do.

how did you come to the conclusion that the Navy was for you?

Caron LeNoir: Oh gosh. Okay, so my mama had a best friend named Sheila, and Miss Sheila had a brother named Pap po. And he was, he was a veteran, he was also a police officer. And he said I was a wild child. I'm sure that's hard to believe, but I was a wild child. He said to me one day, you know, all the reasons you think don't make you worthy would make you great at this.

Would you take a look at it? And I started talking to recruiters and went into the Navy because I. I really wanted to buy a house. I'm also a teenage mother. I was a teenage mother. I had my first child when I was 15 years old. I still graduated high school at 16 with full honors. but he told me all the things that that made me think I wasn't worthy would actually make me brilliant in this role.

And then when I went into the Navy, with the support of my family, I discovered that structure was my superpower. That actually having structure gave me freedom. And I was able to do everything I ever thought I wanted to do. If I thought it I could do it, and I was able to prove it when I went into the Navy.

And eventually, during my service, I got a request from the army. Because I was a program, I was a self-taught, I built my own computers, the whole nine. I'm a self-taught geek. And, I was asked join the Army on a conditional, what's called a conditional release, which is basically, we see something and we wanted, can we have permission to use her for a year?

And that happened. And then nine 11 happened right after. So I served during nine 11, after nine 11 in the Army, and then went back to the Navy and eventually retired.

Donnell Suggs: I wanted to ask about that the Navy anti armies combined it during that time. You still had a chance to be a journalist during that time. Am I correct?

Caron LeNoir: I was a journalist before I went

Donnell Suggs: Right. And you still, you continue to be one while you were in,

Caron LeNoir: I did, I did. I got a chance. I got a chance to work. To, to work. Well, it, it had to be, Because I, you know, you go when you have a regular job. Most people don't realize it's regular work. It's, it's really regular work. You train, you get good at something and you continue to do it. But I'm not one dimensional.

None of us are a monolith. So there were other things I wanted to do, and I did have this journalistic experience that I brought from the time I was literally a child. And, so I would write, I always write. writing is something that is so near and dear to my heart. It's something that is cathartic.

It's something that has helped me and, and my wellbeing and mental health throughout the years. but they told me if I was going to be a jail, that I had to strike for it. And what that meant was I had to do on-job training, and I had to do that outside of my regular work. So I did, I, in, in, in Virginia there are, there's a group of five bases that makes up the largest, military installation in the country.

and I was on one base and the base next door was where, the Navy Times was housed. So when I got off work, I would go there and write. I would work with the Office of Public Affairs, and I would write and I would shoot and I would be able to have freedom to tell my own stories. And it was one of the most amazing blessings of my life.

To be able to have a voice and to have that voice reinforced. with the Navy, with the people who I served with, to honor the people I served and to be able to tell their stories became one of the greatest privileges of my life.

Zuri Berry: How long were you serving for? When? When did you get to the point of retirement?

Caron LeNoir: 15 years combined service. I was injured after nine 11 in a military vehicle. I was stateside, and I was, injured in a military vehicle and I was medically retired from there. But it took me a really, really long time to get the benefits I deserved that I earned. because I am a woman, because I am a black woman, there are a lot of barriers to us getting the benefits that we've earned.

and I am really grateful and fortunate that I had the wherewithal and fortitude to fight for women in the military. And it changed the way that we are rated in disability with the VA system.

Zuri Berry: Absolutely. And this is actually one of the things that I wanted to talk with you about today because one of your, sort of guiding Lights, missions is to advocate for women, particularly women veterans. tell me, you know, this is, this feels like the spark for it right now, your particular injury, but tell me about this fight because it feels like, folks may not be fully aware of, like, just how recent it was that you could get the kind of healthcare that you needed at that point in time.

Caron LeNoir: Yeah, a lot of people, and thank you for bringing that up. A lot of people don't realize that until the Obama administration, women didn't have equal healthcare in the va, we had to pay for our own healthcare outside of the system because the system did not include us. I speak about being a formerly homeless veteran, and I, I don't do that with shame.

I do that with pride because. My journey has helped other people and other women have a voice within the VA system. It was really important for me to make sure that, well first of all, I'm a fighter. I'm a scrap you up all day. I'm scrappy. That's this what it's gonna be. but everybody doesn't have as big or as bold of a voice as I do.

And you know how they say hindsight's 2020. I can look back now and see the impact that my life and my voice has had on the trajectory of other people's lives, that have also served. But we are really the forgotten breed Women. Veterans are the forgotten breed. military spouses are treated with higher regard and with more respect than women who actually serve as quiet as is kept.

Zuri Berry: Mm. That feels like a whole word. Like we could go like real deep on that. Like that. Tell me about that.

Caron LeNoir: who are married to men who serve, do not serve. There are actually women who serve, who have to fight more than what they ask for than what we deserve. And, until the Obama administration, we did not have women's healthcare in the va, he made that a thing he created. And, and, and even when he made that a thing, president Obama, it was still, they created the space for it within the va, like physical space for it.

But those clinics were empty for over a year cuz they had no one to, to attend to it, to house it. They weren't hiring for it.

Zuri Berry: Yeah.

Caron LeNoir: didn't staff it, it, it just, it was just a room that says women's clinic. And that was it. But we had to pay for our own healthcare. If it was not a broken bone or the flu, we would have to pay for our own healthcare.

When, and this is really interesting, every service member I went in, in 1994, every service member in the world paid $2 of every paycheck, $2 of every paycheck to go into housing for homeless veterans, but it was only for men. So $2 outta every single member in the entire military service forever has paid into a system that only honored the men that served, not us.

Zuri Berry: Mm.

Caron LeNoir: We weren't included in that. And then I, I, I, I was able to align myself with. fabulous woman, ginger Bain Miller, women Veterans Interactive Foundation, who's one of the people I credit with helping save the life of me and my family. the purpose of the foundation was to make sure that women, veterans were taken care of and that we did have housing, and that we did have a voice in, in these massive government spaces that did not acknowledge us for many, many years.

Ginger Bain Miller is God's work on this earth. I love her. I love her dearly, and I talk to her all the time, but she knows how much I adore her because the work that she's doing is actually God's work to make sure that women, veterans not only have a voice, not only have a choice, but we have options.

Donnell Suggs: Did you ever get a chance to write about this? I'd love to learn more. I'm glad our listeners will get a chance to learn what you're saying, but I'd like to learn a lot more.

Caron LeNoir: I'm writing now,

Donnell Suggs: Oh, nice.

Zuri Berry: Mm. Oh, oh, oh. I feel like booking, booking the works.

Donnell Suggs: Right.

Caron LeNoir: this, this, there's, there's a couple of books in the works. I'm actually, you know, also really proud to be a member of military veterans in journalism and I'm a part of the Speaker's Bureau. So I go around the country and I train other journalists. I train newsrooms on how to responsibly report on women veterans, veterans homelessness, and the VA system.

It's something that's so important and significant to my life, but the truth is I have these comrades in arms where I am seen and where I'm able to amplify the voices of other women and veterans who may not feel seen. It's a long road. The VA system is very, it's, it's a trip.

Zuri Berry: I, I want to come back. I, I wanna talk about the VA system more and sort of how journalists can probably cover it better, because there's a VA close to many people around the country. They're strategically positioned, they're in all kinds of different communities, and we only hear about the one around Washington DC for some folks, but, Let me step back just a little bit.

In your story here, you, you talked about being homeless for a little while. Can you talk about that situation? How did that come about? Was it because of the injury from, when you were, when you were injured in the, army? Excuse me. what, what happened there and, and how did this situation come about?

And you mentioned, obviously how it sort of was resolved through the grace of the working with this woman in this nonprofit, but can you talk about sort of the, the details there?

Caron LeNoir: Thank you so much for asking me that question. I became homeless because I didn't have access to care, so,

Zuri Berry: Hmm.

Caron LeNoir: I had deteriorating conditions that were service connected and I didn't have access to care. It would take me an hour, an hour and a half, sometimes six hours to get to the VA system to get to a doctor that would even see me and then to be dismissed and not heard.

We all know, well, maybe y'all don't know, but I know, black women's voices in medical care are not heard. They ignore our pain. They ignore our status, they ignore how we move through life. So I have a big mouth and I'm grateful that my daddy gave me this mouth, but, it was because of access to care. I had deteriorating conditions.

And I did not have healthcare. And it took me so long to get it that, I became classified as chronically homeless. And a lot of people don't know that there are different levels to homelessness. You are gauged based on where you fall and that trajectory. And, you know, couch surfing is one thing, but if you're able to pay for a hotel for one night, you will be denied benefits because you are able to pay it for yourself.

So if you get, you know, motel six or a Red Roof Inn for $60 a night, they say, well, you're able to pay for your own housing, not considering the fact that you don't have a home. There's a difference between being sheltered and having a home. And it disproportionately affects black women because. And women in general?

Well, mostly black women because we are the ones who raise families. We're the ones who have the children when the husbands leave or divorce or, you know, things don't go as planned. We have children and one of the barriers that a lot of people are not aware of is that if you have a, if you have children that are, mixed sex, if you have a girl and a boy, you can't go to some shelters. You just, you just can't. It's not allowed unless your children are all of the same sex by birth. Cuz let's be clear about that. Gender is a spectrum, but if you have mixed sex children, if you have girls and boys, you cannot get placement in a shelter.

Zuri Berry: Mm.

Caron LeNoir: it's not allowed. So that prolongs, it prolongs the tragedy.

It prolongs the, it prolongs the problem. It makes it bigger, greater, and more awful than anybody can ever imagine. And think about the fact that if you have children, protection of them is, is your first priority. But if they tell you you can't be here because your children are not the same, that adds insult to injury.

And that's a very real issue when it comes to homelessness. It's not just about the fact that women disproportionately are victims, and survivors of domestic abuse counseling is not readily available. Some of the conditions and homeless shelters around the country, we are not even talking about military.

Zuri Berry: Cuz a lot of times you can't even, that's not even on the radar. doesn't feel safe for some people. That's for sure.

Caron LeNoir: it's not safe at all. It's not safe for, for us, it's not safe for the children. And many times if you do find a place where, they do accept, you know, children that have girls and boys, they have, the boys have to live on a different floor. They can't stay with their mom in the same place as the girls.

And that's often a violent

Donnell Suggs: Right.

Caron LeNoir: existence. It's a violent existence, it's a dangerous one. You can't even keep your kids with you. So it's, it's the trajectory that, that when it comes to homelessness, when it comes to being unhoused, when it comes to being unsafe, is a very, very real thing. And it's, it's not fair.

And it can get ugly. but the truth of the matter is, we don't have enough people talking about their experiences, to change the systems that exist right now.

Donnell Suggs: That's kinda why I think this conversation is important because it's not the typical journalism conversation per se. It's not a typical what, what Zu and I host folks this. This doesn't come up, but it needs to and I'm glad it is. It's very important that people hear

Zuri Berry: And, and we have a, a lot of privilege in our profession in terms of people who are able to do this work. And, you don't typically hear folks who don't have that privilege because of whatever reason, an injury such as yours. after giving service to this country, I, it just, yeah, there's a lot

Caron LeNoir: we're, we're not even talking about disability. We haven't even gotten there yet, you know? We haven't even gotten there yet. I am, I am disabled. I don't look disabled cuz you get all this. But

Donnell Suggs: Amen.

Caron LeNoir: I am disabled. I am, someone who has varying levels of, of ability, psychologically, physically. but I also live with what's called invisible disabilities.

So if you look at me, if you see me, you wouldn't think it, it would never cross your mind that I was disabled because I'm, I'm, I have a lot of energy. I'm demonstrative, I'm like fabulous. I got all these things to go on. But I, I have a lot of other stuff going on too. but disability is also a, a very real factor.

there are some days when I cannot get up. There are some days when I need help doing regular things. I, well, I don't do dishes cuz I have adult children, but, I don't take out trash. I don't do dish. I don't do none of that stuff, but that's a choice. But if I had to do it, I wouldn't be able to do it on my own.

Zuri Berry: mm.

Caron LeNoir: I would not physically be able to do it. There are times when I need help with, need help, bathing, need help, going to the bathroom, need help walking from rum room to the, to another or even to get rest, like I need help. Sometimes just getting rest and rest is a radical act. It's a radical act. It is a choice that many of us don't know.

We have the right to, but there are times when I have to be carried to my bedroom so I can get good rest. disability is something that is, it's not linear. It makes no sense, especially for someone as young as I am. It just, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But this is the life I live and this is the hill I will die on.

I will defend every last one of us that has a ability for every last ability. You know, my Uncle Stevie was deaf. I have another, you know, uncle on my mom's side. That was an a multiple amputee, diabetes, stroke, heart disease. All of these things that disproportionately affect our communities that we don't talk enough about.

There are consequences. There are effects after effects that can last. For Y Covid, I lost half of my paternal family during c o d in a month.

Zuri Berry: I'm so sorry to hear that.

Caron LeNoir: Half of my paternal family. I have a, an aunt and a cousin that died one day after each other. You know, my uncle died a week later. Another uncle died another week later. It, it was, it's insane. And, and there are people who now live with long covid, but we never, we, we never seen anything like covid before.

You know what I mean? We didn't experience that. But even before that, we also had loved ones and people that, that we respect and appreciate that have lived with disability for a really long time. We don't talk about it. We don't talk about it.

Donnell Suggs: Invisible disability. That's that. That's a whole nother ballgame I think. I'm glad we're talking about that too. I think there's a lot of us who have them that don't even know we have them.

Caron LeNoir: Absolutely. We ha invisible disabilities can look like arthritis. It can look like, Chronic fatigue. It can look like back pain. It could look like, mental health issues. Um,

Donnell Suggs: to sleep.

and look, we are not even gonna go there, but it's insomnia right now cuz I've been up for three days. Wow. See

Caron LeNoir: it's a very real thing.

Insomnia,depression, anxiety, depression and anxiety of our children. Autism is a spectrum, so is mental health. You know, it's, it's not something that's linear, but it's something that needs to be addressed. In last year, one of my proudest moments was that I actually, was certified in, mental Health First Aid, which is something that's available to all of us and something I want to encourage their classes that are free so that you can recognize in youth and in adults when somebody's really in trouble, when they're really struggling. You can recognize it and you can lead them to care because you have the resources to do it. I encourage everyone to look at mental health First Aid because it wasn't just me, it was also my children who were struggling. This pandemic that was a juggernaut,

Zuri Berry: Yeah,

Caron LeNoir: was a juggernaut,

Zuri Berry: unfortunately.

Caron LeNoir: and a lot of our young people are, are, are still struggling, but recognize the signs because it will save lives.

And that's, that's my purpose. Truth telling us, saving lives. That's what I'm doing. Put my cape on.

Zuri Berry: yeah. And before I, I, I forget to get back to this because I, I know I still want to talk about your podcasting career and the intersection of your entrepreneurial pursuits and all of those things. I have to ask you more about the military, veterans

Caron LeNoir: Sure.

Zuri Berry: because, you know, this is such an interesting group.

It was not something that was readily known to me by any means, but when I started looking into it, I was like, this is really cool, because obviously we have a dearth of veterans in journalism. And then you mentioned earlier in this conversation just about the, the need for coverage around the va. And, and I'm wondering how, what, what that conversation is usually like, because I feel, you know, particularly like this is an undercover issue, we have so many specialty publications that are geared towards covering defense and these bases and military life, but it doesn't really seep over into general, the general public media, the, the, the, you know, not mainstream media really much at all.

And so I wanted to get your sense of that while, while we still have a moment.

Caron LeNoir: And, and with all that being said, whenever there's a mass shooting in this country, Whenever there's a violent event, the first thing that is assumed is whether or not they were a veteran that have P ts d.

Donnell Suggs: It comes up a lot. It does.

Caron LeNoir: We are not all crazy. We are not all, you know, everyone does not serve in combat. But even when you do serve in combat, even if you don't serve in combat, there's still trauma that's associated with defending this country. Every last one of us took an oath to defend this country, to defend the people in it, but every single time there is an incident in this country that's violent, that's has to do with mass violence.

It is, it always comes down to whether or not they were a vet. It's like, man, come on. The veteran community is a microcosm of the greater. Community of this country. We are represented in every area. Race, culture, creed, finance, everything. We are the same. There is no greater mental health challenge to veterans than there is to people who grew up in Baltimore.

I grew up in a violent city, a city I love, but a violent city. I grew up watching people die before I was 18 years old. I'd been to over 200 funerals. That had nothing to do with my military service, nothing to do with it. It had everything to do with the fact that I grew up in a city that was majority black, brilliant, beautiful, and also have violence. Those things are not mutually exclusive. They're just not.

I am a woman who was raised. In an educated family, a beautiful family, a hardworking family, we not all the same, none of us are a monolith. We as people, as black people have brilliance and beauty. Beyond compare the entire world. The entire world creates economies based on what we create, based on what we create. And yet we are not acknowledged or respected in the way that we should be. And I'm gonna tell you how I found peace with that. I found peace with that because we get to put out into the world what is purposed for us to put into the world. And we get an opportunity to live this life and to tell these stories, which is why I'm so committed as a journalist.

I get to use my voice to tell our stories. And if I don't, who's going to do it? Who's gonna do it?

Zuri Berry: Let me, let me ask you this. What do you think in terms of what's needed right now for coverage of veterans and veterans specifically around the va? Because it is the sort of I guess the greatest example of government bureaucracy, at times failure, but also hope. In terms of what we can do for veterans, and it feels like an enigma in a lot of ways in terms of solving this puzzle.

So what, what do you think, what kind of coverage do you think needs to happen with respect to veterans in the va?

Caron LeNoir: Well, first of all, resources. Resources are very important. And I mentioned military veterans and journalism, M vj.network. Has a number of resources for journalists and for the general public about responsible reporting. If you're gonna talk about a vet, get the rank right, get the people straight, understand who you're talking about and why you're talking about them, what their jobs are, and what they do, what we do.

so resources, number one, organizations like military veterans and journalism is extraordinarily inclusive. We have voices. They created a speaker's bureau for this purpose to make sure that people are responsible, not just about talking about veterans, but also talking about the disabled. Also talking about women, also talking about intersectionality.

One of my specialties is intersectionality cuz I'm black, I'm a woman, I'm fabulous, I'm skilled, I'm educated, and I'm a vet. I mean, it's, but all of those things don't necessarily come together when we tell stories and when veterans are represented in the context of violence versus the context of our contribution to this country.

I remember I pulled up to, Wegman's, Wegman's, the supermarket, right? pulled up to Wagman's and I pulled in. They had designated spaces for vets, right? I didn't have any insignia on my car, anything like that. I pulled into the parking space and this woman gets out the car and said, how dare you, how dare you park there? Where's your husband, girl, where's your husband? But having to deal with that kind of vitriol and assumption that, number one, that I'm not the vet.

Zuri Berry: Wait, I, I have, I feel like it's important we know where are you located again?

Caron LeNoir: I'm in Charlottesville, Virginia, Tiki Torch

Zuri Berry: Oh, yeah, exactly. That's why I wanted to mention that. I want people to recognize what you're talking about, what they're still dealing with in Charlottesville right

Donnell Suggs: location, location.

Caron LeNoir: location, location, location. And this is, this is a place with a, a lot of really, beautiful and amazing people. I have a, a, a, a daughter that's thriving, in this community of very wealthy schools. It's a small town, with a lot of energy and a lot of art. That's great. But,

Zuri Berry: Still recovering from this incident.

Caron LeNoir: I have, you know, I haven't been here that long.

I actually got here after the Tiki Torch parade. this became my pandemic home because like I said before, I was supposed to move back to Charlotte, North Carolina on March 15th, and the world shut down on March 13th. So North Carolina was one of the first states to shut everything down. I couldn't go back home. I had to find a place to exist here, and it just so happens that my beautiful and brilliant daughter is thriving, so I decided to stay here. but yeah, it's, it's, it's such an interesting place to be in this day and time because it's not just about living on Thomas Jefferson's land, which I literally live on Thomas Jefferson's land. It's not just about that. It's about the inherent privilege and disregard for people who built this country. University of Virginia was built by the enslaved, our ancestors, you know, it's one of the wealthiest schools in the country, built by enslaved people, built by our ancestors. And the majority of the people that work at UVA that are black, are in service positions. They're not educated even though they have access to free education. That's just reality. That's the reality of, of wherever we live in this country. And I, I know I'm going, you know, a little bit off, but

Donnell Suggs: I don't

Zuri Berry: yeah, let me, let me transition a little bit. Let me transition a little bit because I, I, I want to get back to your career in journalism and there was a, there's a point in which you, picked up microphone in a different way. Not singing, not necessarily broadcast, but radio and podcasting. And I'd like for you to talk to us about that.

Can you tell us when you started podcasting and, and I, the significance of that? Because I think folks don't realize how long people like yourself have been at it.

Caron LeNoir: I started podcasting in 2007 when I was pregnant with my youngest daughter. she will be 15 next month. so it's been 16 years and I started podcasting with, do you remember the, the MacBooks that were black or white? And they were plastic and I had a little snowball microphone. But I was put on bedrest because I had a very difficult pregnancy.

I was put on bedrest and I had done radio for many, many years, but podcasting was still new and unless you had an iPod or Mac, you didn't have access to it. But I did. And it was the way it, my first podcast was called Enter the Grand Divine. And it was a podcast that, dealt with, spirituality. I am a Christian by faith.

it dealt with spirituality and practical application of Christianity and life. and I included music in that cuz I am a musician. You never going keep me from singing and, into the Grand Divine grew from God. It's been a lot of years. It's not up anymore, but it grew from. Literally not even thinking anybody was listening cuz it was such a new technology back then.

to me having over 50,000 listeners a week, you know, people, it validated that what I had to say had value. And what I had to give was purposeful. And since then I've produced more than 70 podcasts. I, I became a producer of podcasts. I, I started teaching other people how to podcast. I started teaching other people that their voice had space.

And the interesting thing about it is it's not regulated the same way radio is. The f a has no foot in this game. You can say and do whatever you want. Be responsible in doing it as a journalist, there are tenets that I believe in and that I up uphold, about truth telling, about research, about honest, truthful storytelling.

Everybody doesn't have that, but you know what? Everybody doesn't need that sometimes. It's just fun. And this was a landscape where we could just have fun in a very different way. So yeah, I've been podcasting since 2007. I produced over 70, probably more than that, honestly. and I still love it. I still really, really love it. just because of the freedom that it brings, but because it is the ultimate expression of our first amendment. It's the ultimate expression of our first amendment.

Donnell Suggs: Caron. I wanted to ask you, being an experienced podcast producer, what do you think about the idea? Zuri and I came up with having these kind of conversations with black journalists. We just couldn't find it anywhere, so we came up with it. I'd love to have hear your thoughts as someone who's produced so many podcasts, uh, just about the idea.

You don't have to tell us whether you like it or not, but just

Caron LeNoir: Oh my gosh. This is why I stalk you. This is why I stalk you. This is literally why I stalk you when I heard this. It, it's not only is it brilliant, but it's expansive. This is something that can be scaled. One of the, one of my areas of expertise is, podcast and profits. I believe in profitability. I don't believe in doing things for the sake of just doing it.

but this is such an expansive idea. It's something that hasn't been done. I haven't seen it. I haven't heard it. So when I saw that you guys were doing it, I was like, wait a minute. I need to jump on this, but I wanna be a part of it. I don't wanna take it over. I wanna be a part of it because there's so many of us.

One of the, projects I'm working on right now is called Life Beyond News. And Life Beyond News is an initiative to help journalists, people who have our training, transition out of news into entrepreneurial journalism.

Zuri Berry: Mm.

Caron LeNoir: This is a platform that is expansive. There are no limits. We put limits on ourselves, but there are no limits.

I, this is, it's a brilliant idea and I just, you know, we're gorgeous. We're brilliant. I just love the beautiful blackness of it all and that it's unapologetically spotlighting. The people who give us courage and strength and contribute to our daily lives that we don't even talk about. I wanna encourage every journalist that's listening to join the N A B J. I wanna encourage everyone to connect to military veterans in journalism. I want to encourage all of us to continue in community. You are creating a community of brilliant people, and that's why I love it so much. This is why I stalk you.

Donnell Suggs: official seal of approval for me. Z. I'm good right there

Zuri Berry: Thank you for that. And, and I, I, I love that validation. I'll take it all day. let me, let me ask you about this though, because the, the entrepreneurial journalism aspect of this, I mean, we've talked to startup news entrepreneurs, and I, you know, I feel like we're talking about a little bit of a different space, which is to say more like independent journalists, folks that are.

Living and thriving with their created works, whether it's the podcast or the CK or whatever it may be. You live in that space too. You have your own company. Car is a media, Quran is a media, excuse me. can you talk about sort of what your company is, how you make money? well, you know, who do you serve right at this moment?

Caron LeNoir: Well, Kiran is a media group. we have three arms. one of them is, strategic communications and pr. Another of the arms is, is audio. Kiran is an, audio, is a, a big part of that. And the other part is just me as a speaker and as a personality, intentional towards change. Kara's, a media group is positioned to speak truth to power.

We are positioned as. An independent journalist, and I also employ independent journalists to use our voices to tell our stories, otherwise they wouldn't get told. I will tell you this, I have never been able to bring myself out of a financial rut with a job. I've only been able to do it with my own voice and learning how to monetize it.

And that's why it's so important that we own our names, that we own our spaces, and that we own our voices. And no, and, and you know what, I'll say this too. A lot of people don't do what we do because they're afraid to fail. I want everyone within the sound of my voice to get rid of that theory, be willing to fail. Anything that's worth doing is worth being bad at at first.

Donnell Suggs: Hmm.

Caron LeNoir: You get good along the way. You find mentors along the way. You find love along the way. You find energy and purpose and, and, and position along the way. But none of it happens without work. Faith, without works is dead. That's what the Bible says.

The faith without works is dead, but we have to be willing to put our money where our mouth is. I'm also a voice artist. I've, I I I teach about audio books. I teach about publishing. I teach about using your voice and voiceover. There's so many ways that we can support our lives and our families, and our, our, our profession, our vocation, just by using our voices.

Everybody doesn't have a voice, but we do,

Zuri Berry: You

Caron LeNoir: can use it to make money. I like money is, money goes really well with my complexion.

Zuri Berry: okay, so asking for a friend. can you make, a living, full-time living on podcasting alone?

Caron LeNoir: Apps, Arely abs of frequently. The misconception, I think that the misunderstanding about any business is that you only make money doing one thing. You can't make money doing one thing. And when you make a little bit of money, but you can't make real money, you can't scale, you can't grow only doing one thing.

So having a podcast is one thing, depending on other people to pay for it is another. You don't have to depend on other people to pay for it because within your podcast, whatever your subject is, whatever your focus is, there are other ways to monetize how you exist in this space. So you have a podcast about, Black people in journalism, podcasting. But you can also teach somebody else how to get started. You can also teach someone else, how to outfit their home studio. You can consult, you can coach, you can thrive in so many other ways. It doesn't take away from the power of what you bring. You know, I don't believe in the, the old, the saying, you know, what do you bring to the table?

I am the table. This is the table. This is the table.

Zuri Berry: Let me, let me just say that what you just said has been repeated by, I think, other guests here in just a different way, which is that, you know, we, we like diverse revenue. We, we, that's a, that's a good thing and that's how you should think about it when you're, when you're talking about, you know, moving into the entrepreneurial space.

it's necessary. And, you know, a lot of people think that, they jump on podcasting because they think they, they're going to get rich quick, get famous quick. And I tell everybody, in the sound of my voice, this is a long game. This is not, I didn't, didn't grow a podcast to over 5 million because I showed up one day and it just happened. It requires learning about marketing, learning about sales, being willing to go into spaces. You might not be as comfortable, but you can learn. There's so much learning that comes into this and there's so much, brilliance that can come out of it if you open yourself up to understanding what business is and what it requires.

Caron LeNoir: I am an entrepreneurial journalist. I was a part of the first cohort. The National Association of Black Journalists Entrepreneurial, academy Entrepreneur Academy, I am now co-chair of what is now a task force for the Entrepreneur Academy. Life Beyond News means that what we have to give to this world is not limited by a contract with a new station. It means that we have a set of skills that's valuable far beyond what any of us ever considered, and I'm here to give the consideration.

Zuri Berry: Absolutely.

Donnell Suggs: So journalism isn't just a one trick pony. There's a whole bunch of ways to do what we're doing and to make a living,

Caron LeNoir: Absolutely.

Donnell Suggs: out there and try to find 'em.

Caron LeNoir: Look, I, I could break it down to you, but I'll just give you a couple of hints. Copywriting, social management, social media management,public affairs for government, for police forces. Everybody needs a competent, qualified voice. We don't know how many spaces that occupies, and it's a lot, and it continues to grow.

We actually create space by doing this. Why wouldn't we monetize it? But it is also a skill. Monetizing your voice is a skillset, and it's one that can be, it's one that's very present and very profitable. It's delicious. I ain't gonna lie. It's delicious.

Zuri Berry: Let me ask you this because this is one of the criticisms that I hear about. This particular space. We got too many podcasts out there. There's too many brothers with microphones. There's too many this, too many that, whatever it is. What do you think about the growth of this market, the subset of journalism that specifically is podcasting?

Caron LeNoir: Well, I'll say the same thing about podcasts as I do about blogging. every anybody can start a podcast that doesn't make you a journalist. Journalists can have podcasts, journalists can have blogs, but just having one that exists doesn't make you a journalist. We have, rules that we adhere to, truth telling, research. Making sure our stories are straight. You know, that's not something that doesn't require skill.

It's not something that doesn't require us to do our due diligence. So anybody can have a podcast and, and, and, you know, everything is not free. If you're not willing to invest in yourself and to bet on yourself, then it's, it's not gonna go very far. can you put up a podcast for free? Sure. Is it gonna go anywhere? Nope. Nope. It requires time. It requires energy, it requires focus. This is not easy. Editing is a whole skill that a lot of folk don't wanna do.

But there's a whole lot of companies like mine. That does editing. That's part of how we stay alive by making sure those voices are in spaces that sound great, you know? Yes. You can start a podcast with just your phone and anchor. I'm gonna

Zuri Berry: I wouldn't recommend it.

Caron LeNoir: Look me and anchor me and Anchor. Go way back. Do you remember when Anchor was?

Anchor was what Clubhouse became? Do you remember that?

Zuri Berry: Yeah, I do.

Caron LeNoir: You could only do two minutes at a time on Anchor

Zuri Berry: Mm.

Caron LeNoir: and people had to respond back. It wasn't two-way communication. You could record something, people could respond, but it was never in the same time. Over time, it became a podcast platform. And then when Spotify purchased it, it became a whole other juggernaut.

But the thing that stayed consistent with Anchor is nobody know who's, who owns your stuff. You don't own your stuff. And the one thing I say in every single class I teach is Own your name and own your name as a domain. Have your own space. If you're gonna do this, own the space you occupy. Take it up.

Take up all the space. Because what often happens is when, what was it called? there was a, a social media company that was like huge, I wanna say it's fert, but it's not ferret. It was some kind of cat remember?

Zuri Berry: Yeah, I do.

Caron LeNoir: Meka

Zuri Berry: live.

Caron LeNoir: Oh gosh. Meka shut down without any notice. And people had huge platforms on Meerkat.

They had huge platforms on, oh, what was it called? It was, it was a short form video platform. and it shut down overnight when

Zuri Berry: with the one that was bought by Twitter. I'm already

Caron LeNoir: Yes, yes,

Zuri Berry: but I know what you're talking about.

Caron LeNoir: You know what I'm talking about.

Zuri Berry: we, we, we, we played with those when I was at the club for a little while, experimenting with it and it, it didn't make sense to me, but I mean, that, then again, it shut down.

I was like, well, that, that, that made sense.

Caron LeNoir: It went all the way down. Own your name and own your name as a domain because you don't own Facebook. You don't own Instagram. Matter of fact, they own each other. You don't own any of these social media platforms. So where. Are you owning your voice? In what space do you occupy? Well, all your stuff stays your stuff that nobody can take from you.

That's the important piece in all of this, because podcasting is great. It can be fun, it can be tedious, it can be a lot of work. It can be a little bit of work, but it can. It can be great. But if you don't own it, then you don't have a dog in this fight.

Zuri Berry: Yeah. All that conversation about monetization means nothing at that point. and I, and I absolutely agree with you with respect to just owning your, your, your name, your domain, your, your RSS feed, whatever it may be. Make sure you have control of it in a way that you can move it if you want or whatever.

which is, you know, a lot of folks don't know, but that's getting in the weeds. Kran, before we finish up here, cuz I, I know we're past an hour, I wanted to see if there was anything that you wanted to bring up before we get going.

Caron LeNoir: Well, I, I, I wanna just say thank you. I, I'm really grateful for this time. I'm grateful for your existence, for your leadership. Zuri, I've been following you for a long time. I'm just getting introduced to you, Darnell. but Zuri, I've been following you for a long time. We've been connected for a long time.

So,

Zuri Berry: we were saying before we got on this call, we, you know, we get connected on social media. We sometimes we forget how we got, how long ago that was or what that was about, but yeah, it's been nice. Yeah.

Caron LeNoir: it's been a minute. But your, your, your, your presence and your leadership, your willingness to, not just make this about you, but to make it about us. I'm really grateful for it. So the only thing I wanna say is thank you. Because I'm full of gratitude for this moment and for meeting both of you and, I see some, some awesome stuff in the future.

I see some awesome stuff in the future for all of us, hopefully working together and, and, and growing and expanding and, and making sure that, we as a collective community, become one.

Zuri Berry: Thank you.

Donnell Suggs: Sounds like a good

Zuri Berry: much appreciated. Well, Thank you so much for spending this evening with us, chatting about your story, your journey, and I'm so glad we got to hear your voice and you get to tell it and to learn more about military veterans and journalism. you know, again, we're just starting this podcast just, just literally getting, you know, maybe six or so interviews in, you know, not everybody's seen everyone yet.

And, we've had tremendous experiences we've already heard about and so I'm very thankful for that. I'm very thankful for you for sharing your story.

Donnell Suggs: Caron, thank you so much.

Caron LeNoir: Thank you so much. Y'all are killing it though. If there's anything you need, please don't hesitate to reach out. You're killing it. I, I love this. I literally love this so much. So thank you.

Donnell Suggs: Seal of approval.